SPOILER alert:This story contains spoilers for Season 2 of “The Bear,” now streaming on Hulu.
“Fishes,” the sixth episode of “The Bear” Season 2, flashes back to the last Berzatto Christmas. In one of the most exciting episodes of TV this year, Jamie Lee Curtis, Bob Odenkirk, John Mulaney and Sarah Paulson join the chaotic family for a stress-inducing dinner sequence, which also features the return of Jon Bernthal as Michael.
During Season 1, audiences learned that Carmy’s (Jeremy Allen White) brother died by suicide and held quite a lot of secrets. “Fishes” provides a glimpse into the life Mikey was living, under his mother’s roof. In an explosive back-and-forth with Lee (Odenkirk), Mikey erupts in rage and throws forks at his “uncle” as he scolds Mikey and calls him “nothing.”
The episode also features an emotional moment between Carmy and Mikey, during which it’s revealed just how much Carmy wanted to work at the Beef alongside his brother — and how much Mikey didn’t want to drag him into his mess.
In an interview with PvNew, Bernthal breaks down the emotions, the intense dinner fight with Odenkirk and the improvised moments of “Fishes.”
Did you know you’d be coming back for Season 2 when you filmed the Season 1 cameo?
I’m really close with Ebon [Moss-Bachrach]. He reached out, out of the blue last year. He’s one of those guys that I don’t just love as a friend and as a human being; I trust him so much as an artist. My first gig ever was understudying him in an off-Broadway play. When he reached out, he told me how important the show was to him. It turned out to be this wonderful thing, and then I got to know [creator] Chris [Storer], and I fell in love with the spirit of the show. once the show came out and I was in touch with everybody, they did mention they were probably going to bring me back, but there was nothing set in stone. I just said, look, whatever it is, I’ll always make myself available because I believe in them so much and I believe in the show so much.
The episode is filled with A-list guest stars. Had you known any of them prior?
I’d met Jamie Lee Curtis years and years earlier. I did a movie with Christopher Guest and met her then. It was so cool, and she actually flew out to visit Chris with my girlfriend, who’s now my wife. They got along so well, so it was really, really cool to see her. Everybody in that episode… I can’t really begin to describe how big of a dream that was — how creative the environment is, how conducive it is to collaboration and how free it was. It’s great to be there and watch it and know that that kind of work exists.
Let’s talk about Mikey and Carmy’s relationship. Carmy makes a comment about Mikey not answering calls, and Mikey seems determined not to work with Carmy. Why do you think that is?
I think the stuff that we don’t know is almost as interesting as the stuff that we do. I think that that’s what’s great about creating super complex and nuanced characters. This show is so deeply personal to these creators. This is really their story. It’s, in my opinion, the only way to do really beautiful television, and that’s why it’s such an honor for me to be a part of it. I only know bits of information and we know, obviously, what Mikey’s fate is. Oftentimes, when we really love people and we’re aware of our own toxicity, our own hopelessness, and him being in the state that he’s in… he feels like this shop and the way that he’s run it and everything around him has been this enormous Albatross, and he’s kind of run into the ground. He’s shrouded in hopelessness, and he wants to keep his brother out of it. He wants to keep his brother pure. That might manifest itself sometimes in jealousy and anger.
This was almost the opposite of the Mikey we saw in Season 1.
What I was super grateful for in this round with Mikey is when you look at perspective and you look at what happened last season with that little scene they had, Carm was almost looking at him on a pedestal. It was [about] remembering his bravado, how beautiful of a storyteller he was, his charm, how he’s larger than life, how he could come into a room and just have everybody in the palm of his hand. Through the lens of memory, it was this beautiful celebration of this guy. But this year, they really showed the other side — his ugliness, his damage, his hurt, his pain, the parts of him that didn’t quite sync up. And to get a little bit of a glimpse into how hard the world was for him, it’s bold storytelling. It’s people who aren’t afraid to dig into the wound of their own personal history. I think you really got to see his hurt, his pain and his damage, and he doesn’t want his brother to be a part of that.
After Carmy leaves the pantry, Mikey breaks down in tears and slaps himself in the face. Was that on the page?
A lot of it was scripted. It’s a real testament to Chris, who wrote the episode. When he leaves him there, 99.9 shows out of 100, as soon as Carmy leaves that pantry, you go with Carmy. To stay on Mikey and be with him, it defies so much of how we do television, in terms of perspective and whose point of view we’re really looking at. It’s a private moment with this character that we know doesn’t exist. They give him two —the moment that he’s sitting there waiting for him, suggesting that he’s feeling the buzz of the pills that he just took, but more importantly, afterward: They leave him there to sit in that pain, and to show it. That moment was understanding that this dream was never going to happen, this was never going to work because he knew where he was headed. He knew where he was going.
Opportunities like that are so unbelievably rare to give characters that private moment. I do think Chris wrote the slap. It was just so, so beautifully written and makes it makes the job super easy.
How did you create that tension with Bob Odenkirk, and what conversations were had before that?
The power of an ensemble, like the power of theater, is you look around that table and everybody is just a thoroughbred. The tension is created in the room. Every time we went and did it, it was completely different — a new person sort of popped up and did this new bubble of intensity or dread. It was super fucking tense in there, because everybody came to play and everybody really knows what they’re doing. And the material is so gorgeous.
With Bob, I’m such a huge fan of his. I thought it was just such a perfect choice. He was so down to come at me, and vice versa! When you have an environment like that, everyone is willing to be a little bit dangerous, because there’s so much trust. There’s so much love and everybody’s so dedicated. The goal starts to then be, OK, how can I shock this person? How can I scare this person? How can I do something that they’ll never expect? How can I lose myself within this? When you create an atmosphere that’s that unbelievably creative and that unbelievably safe, danger is not a hard thing to find. It was really fun! It was like great theater work, and it’s really rare.
How many times did you film that scene? I imagine it may be a bit exhausting.
I would do that all day. I don’t really get exhausted, that’s like a thrill for me. The show moves unbelievably fast. It’s a real testament to what this group has found: the conglomeration, the alchemy of these great artists with this great material. Last year, I had to shoot my stuff basically on my lunch break. They flew out to L.A. for me to shoot that scene. And they told me, “We move so fast.” I don’t think there was a single day that we were there for more than six hours. [Chris Storer] gets what he wants. He shoots it the right way. The crew is as good as I’ve ever worked with. Everyone is so unbelievably dialed in. The cameras are always moving. They’re totally alive.
You said every take was different. How much improv was there —was the table flip scripted? And what type of forks were you using?
They were kind of like plastic forks? Oh, the table flip definitely wasn’t scripted. But it’s still a testament to Chris. I was like, “Hey, man, you gotta let me kind of go crazy at least once!” I do a lot of action stuff and I’m aware of how big of a reset that it is, where the food is meticulously laid out and it’s so specific and is a character within itself. He definitely gave me the green light. It’s funny when you work with directors, especially in TV, because sometimes they’ll give you the green light, but then be like, “Just maybe save it ’til the end.” Chris was like, “Go do you.” I think the funnest thing for me really, in that scene, was to be off camera and just to keep that intensity, keep that fight going with Bob and see everybody else’s reaction. It was just such a joy to do.
I put on subtitles for some of my second watch, especially the scene with you, Ebon and Jeremy talking about Claire. Your one-liners were cracking me up. Did you say she’s a “basket of biscuits”?
Yeah, “all that and a basket of biscuits” is a Jon Bernthal D.C. line for me. That was definitely one that I threw in. When Chris is behind the monitor, they’re cheering you on, sometimes they’re yelling lines from behind the monitors. It’s this comedic, super dark, really, really authentic and honest world. There’s this air of anything can happen and let’s push it, come up with stuff and be really, really creative. And honor the moment. It really is the best way to work. And with Ebon, it’s such a natural conversation for us. We really found that scene on the day.
More ofPvNew‘s coverage of “The Bear”: For an interview with Jeremy Allen White,click here. For an interview with Ebon Moss-Bachrach,click here. For interview with Will Poulter,click here. ForPvNew’sreview of “Forks,”click here. ForPvNew’sS2 review,click here. For an interview with culinary producer Courtney Storer,click here. For an interview with Episode 4 star Lionel Boyce and director Ramy Youssef,click here. For an interview with Matty Matheson,click here. For more on the S2 soundtrack,click here. For S2 cameo breakdown,click here.For an interview with Mr. Beef owner Chris Zucchero,click here.
