It’s officially “The Challenge” season. Season 40, “Battle of the Eras,” which makes history as the first-ever season of the MTV hit with all returning players, debuts on MTV Wednesday, August 14, and may be the most intense — and emotional — yet.
For those who have been there since the beginning — “The Challenge” launched as “Road Rules: All Stars” in 1998 then changed to “Real World/Road Rules Challenge” the following year — it’s been a surreal journey.
“I’m excited to see people like CT, Johnny Bananas and Mark Long. I’m old school,” says Jon Murray, founder and executive consultant of Bunim-Murray Productions. “You’ve seen how CT has emerged and how he went from being this, sort of, tough guy who could trigger at a moment’s notice to someone who is sometimes the calmest guy in the room. It’s great to be able to tell those long, evolving stories.”
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Julie Pizzi, who has worked on “The Challenge” since 2000 and now serves as the president of BMP and 51 Minds Entertainment, recalls looking around on set of Season 40 in Vietnam and noticing, “There was such a sense of something bigger, which doesn’t always happen on a show. So it made it really, really unique.”
Below, Murray and Pizzi up about to PvNew how the game — and casting for it —has changed, the state of competition reality TV today, other Bunim-Murray Productions series viewers are waiting for, and much more.
Jon, starting with you. Did you ever, when you created “The Real World” in 1992, think that we’d still be here talking about a spinoff that came from that idea?
Jon Murray: We didn’t know we’d be around the next week! Before “The Real World” launched, we had had five years of doing pilots and nothing getting on the air. So. it was just so exciting to finally have something on the air, and that immediately connected with the MTV audience. That first episode of “The Real World,” MTV was typically at .3 as their rating in the demo. Bang, at 10 o’clock, it went to a .9. It tripled the numbers. By Season 4 with Miami, we were up to a 4.5 rating, which was just astronomical. From the very beginning, it was just such a joy making the show. It really did something that television hadn’t done before — really bringing people from different worlds together. In addition to being great entertainment, you grow and learn as they grow and learn.
Julie Pizzi: When we all showed up on set, even the cast were very sentimental about it. There were certain people that were like, “There’s no way I would miss this. I will do whatever it takes to make sure that I’m there.” And that was really special. There were people that were on the very first season there. Looking around at all the people who have participated on the crew and cast side of this franchise for decades was pretty remarkable. And it really was such a team effort. I think there was such a sense of something bigger, which doesn’t always happen on a show. So it made it really, really unique.
The kickoff special featured so many flashbacks to iconic moments through the last 39 seasons. Will that continue throughout the season to bring that nostalgic element to the forefront?
Pizzi: Yeah, we basically digitized all the episodes and mined all the footage that we had over the 39 seasons. We looked a little bit at the success of “All Stars,” because “All Stars” really leans into that nostalgia, and we often do throw-back clips. We realized how much the audience loves it, so we really had an opportunity and a real reason to do that in this season.
I remember when “All Stars” launched, some of the older cast members thought that the daily challenges would be easier than they were. What’s the difficulty level here — because you do have a wide age range of competitors?
Pizzi: So when we developed the creative around “All Stars,” it was a little bit more fun, a little bit more comedic. So those games are very different, but we did keep “The Challenge” franchise intact in terms of the level of difficulty. They really are doing stunts. We have an incredible stunt team from all over the world that participates in the show every year. And so even if it was Mark Long, who is over 50, he still was participating in that level of stunts that is expected from “The Challenge.” The main show is hardcore and [producer] Justin Booth wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s intense!
Jon, who were you most excited to see back?
Murray: I’m excited to see people like CT, Johnny Bananas and Mark Long. I’m old school. I go back to those folks who were originally on “The Real World/Road Rules Challenge,” when that’s what it was called, the people who we’ve watched evolve, watch mature. Most of them have become really cool people. You’ve seen how CT has emerged and how he went from being this, sort of, tough guy who could trigger at a moment’s notice to someone who is sometimes the calmest guy in the room. It’s great to be able to tell those long, evolving stories.
Who was the toughest to get back?
Pizzi: Rachel Robinson was hard to get back because she has a whole business and she has three children. We really wanted her to participate, because she’s such a strong female competitor, and probably stronger today than she was in her 20s. I think she probably took this as a real personal challenge, but we were delighted when she was able to carve out the time to come and play.
We’ve had teams of two but this is the first time we’ve seen big teams since “War of the Worlds 2.” Can you say if there’s one winner, a team winner, etc. on “Eras”?
Pizzi: I don’t think I can tell you!
I love the idea of “Eras,” but I still am missing themes like “Exes” and “Rivals.” What is your favorite theme?
Murray: I was always a fan of “Battle of the Sexes.” I was there for both of those early ones. It plays into something that’s very much still current in our conversations about the roles of men and women and what they’re good at. There’s nothing better than watching two women beat two guys. I mean, that’s really fun. I love that format and then I do love when a group of people have to work together as a team. I love watching to see who’s going to be the leader of the team, how are they going to bring in the kooky outsider, how are they going to strategize as a team. I think that’s always a fun thing. It was easy in the beginning because it was “Real World” vs “Road Rules.” But the team structure is a fun one to play with. Often, it has to evolve into something else, but it’s always fun to start there.
Pizzi: I really did love “Battle of the Seasons.” It would probably play best [now] with “All Stars” because it’s mostly “Real World” and “Road Rules” cast, but that you have somebody that has that real history, that did one show together and know each other that deeply and having them complete. It was one of my favorite seasons, but it was so early.
You guys shot this in Vietnam. What was that like?
Pizzi: It was incredibly hot, and it rained a lot. We shot it in the winter in America, so we could do a ton of games outside. The sun wasn’t going to set until 9 p.m. and it really allowed us a lot of gameplay time.
Some of the cast has spoken out about the living conditions being very difficult. What can you say about that?
Pizzi: We try to create a fantasy location for our cast. We end up in castles. We’ve been in bunkers. We end up in places that we have to bring in in bathrooms because their plumbing can’t sustain. We’ve had to bring in generators. It’s always about trying to find a location that feels like a fantasy. We were in this really remarkable castle this year in Vietnam, and we did have to bring in bathrooms, which I think, on some level, aren’t as pleasant as having hotel bathrooms. But we always do our best. A lot of times we are sourcing locally, so we have local caterers. There’s always an adjustment to people’s pallets. What we really try to do is take good care of our cast. We have a whole talent team that’s dedicated to getting them aspirin and ice packs and more forks and plates and cups. We really try to bend over backward to keep our cast happy, and I’m sure that the majority of them would confirm that.
The industry and landscape has changed quite a bit over the 26 years that “The Challenge” has been on the air. How has what you’re looking for changed?
Murray: We used to sometimes bring someone on because we knew viewers wanted to see them. But unless they really have a competitive spirit, I think at this level, they can’t survive anymore. From the beginning, it had to be someone who was just a clear, dynamic character — someone who was unfiltered, unafraid to be themselves, comfortable with themselves, yet, someone who was still open to others and learning from them. And then someone who was really competitive — not just competitive on the field, but competitive in terms of, “I’m going to be here at the end, and I’m going to figure out how this group is working. I’m going to make sure that I get some allies and that I’m with the group who’s here to the end.” You need strategists and you want them to be able to clearly give you their strategy in interviews.
Pizzi: A lot of these participants reach out to us because they may have been on “Love Island,” but they’re actually very competitive individuals who want to compete on “The Challenge.” Sometimes you don’t see that part of them on one of their other shows, but they come to us.
Jon, are you still getting new ideas for shows? How often are you calling up Julie and saying, “Hey, what about this?”
Murray: The last idea had is “Never Met,” which is on OWN and Max. I love shows that come out of something that’s going on in real life. Particularly during COVID, people were meeting online, but had never met in person. I just thought, wouldn’t it be great to be there when they first actually physically meet? And then the thought was, what if we have a situation where they meet, but then they’re actually with six or seven other couples who are meeting for the first time? Then it turns into a little “Temptation Island.” That was the last thing that I was involved in helping put together. If another one of those situations develops, where I see something in real life, I go back to Julie and the team at BMP to help develop it and get it on the air.
Pizzi: We always joke because every time Jon has an idea, he’ll be like, “What about this?” And then we sell it. Every single show! Not only did “Never Met” air on OWN, it did so well that they commissioned a Season 2 before the finale.
Jon, you created one of the very first reality shows and now competition shows are more popular than ever, the latest being “The Traitors,” which CT and Trishelle won last year. Have you watched?
Murray: I try to watch the first episode of anything new, just to get a sense of what it is and see how it’s evolving the genre. I love Alan Cumming. I think he’s such a delicious host. That’s probably the thing that I’m most excited about in that show. But it is funny to watch some of those shows and see… oh yeah, we did that challenge. Oh yeah, we did that 20 years ago.
Pizzi: Creators of those shows often tell us that they use a lot of our challenges as inspiration and I think because “The Challenge” has been on the air [for so long] and we literally do a different game every year, there’s a lot to take from it. It’s almost like we’re reinventing our own genre every season and I think it’s great. All boats rise with the tide. When those shows do well and they’re creative and people are talking about them, it only gives more fuel to the competition genre. We feel really spoiled because we’ve been able to produce so many cycles of this franchise and we want it to go on forever.
Well, speaking of this growing franchise, there were talks of “Road Rules” coming back in 2021. What’s the status there?
Pizzi: We would always love to bring back “Road Rules.” MTV owns the IP, and they have really, really focused on expanding “The Challenge” IP. We’ve done so many different versions of “The Challenge,” so I think, in terms of flooding the marketplace and making sure that there’s a place for all of the shows that they’ve really gotten behind, it’s never out of the question. It’s not something we’re talking about today, but it always lives in this really special place that we do start talking about it every now and again. I think it will come back at some point, but there is no plan today.
We had two seasons of “The Challenge: USA.” Will there be more of that?
Pizzi: I can’t imagine that it won’t continue. We’re not shooting it right now, but we do feel like it’s a really good franchise, and it performed well. I think everyone really enjoyed it. So hopefully we get a recommission on that too.
What is the status of “The Real World: Homecoming,” which has disappeared from Paramount+? Will there be more?
Pizzi: I sure hope so. We’re not shooting any at the moment, but it’s always a conversation. MTV has been incredibly supportive. It was airing on Paramount+, and I think, obviously, there’s a lot going on right now in the industry. But it is a show that we really enjoyed making, and Jon was super involved in that series.
Murray: It’s one of those ones where you really do feel you need to get everybody on the cast to participate. So there are some we’d love to do, like San Francisco, but there’s some lines that people aren’t willing to cross, so it would be very challenging to get them together.
We know “Vanderpump Villa” is coming back for a second season and Stassi Schroeder has joined. How did that come about?
Pizzi: She has a really long, deep relationship with Lisa Vanderpump. They’ve been friends for years and I think Stassi was going to be here while we were shooting, so it’s kind of like all the stars aligned.
The flagship only airs on MTV but doesn’t have a streaming partner right now. Is there any movement there?
Pizzi: Paramount tells us where we’re producing for, so it’s not something where we really participate in those conversations. But we really do trust their marketing strategy. They’ve been really smart about how they position “The Challenge” on all the different platforms and it’s really benefited the show.
Lastly, how do you top “Battle of the Eras”? Is that a conversation you’re already having?
Pizzi: We’re talking about what the future looks like, and we have some really good ideas. We have to keep trying to outdo ourselves, and really keep trying to re-engage the audience. We have something really exciting up our sleeves that we’ve been working on with MTV. I feel like there’s something to look forward to, but first, enjoy 40 because it’s delicious.
